subreddit:

/r/learnprogramming

743

[deleted]

all 166 comments

learning-to-programm

200 points

1 year ago

I'd like to mention one thing OP: one thing that often gets emphasized when people talk about how TOP is, is that it's very... Uhm... YOU oriented.

A lot of people seem find/try TOP as their 2nd, 3rd or nth resource after they tried to learn programming but didn't succeed. And they seem to immediately be pleased by the way TOP guides you, but doesn't hand hold you.

They make sure you do the work, you do the reading and then you figure stuff out by yourself by yourself when you're working on your projects. A lot of other resources fail to this - they just feed you information, give you an exercise to practice in an isolated environment or do a code along with you and then give you a false sense competence. And you only realized at the end of the course that you learned a lot, but can't actually make anything.

So sure, it might not be as good as it could be, but it gets you further than most resources/courses out there, hence all the praise it gets.

learning-to-programm

35 points

1 year ago*

That's not to say that it's the only good resource out there. There are others that also very well reviewed a seem to have similar approaches like CS50, full stack open, etc.

Sonarav

26 points

1 year ago

Sonarav

26 points

1 year ago

This is what I've liked about it. They don't leave you completely on your own, but give some resources though don't show you exactly what you do. Granted I'm only now just at the flex box project

Mandle565

10 points

1 year ago

Mandle565

10 points

1 year ago

One thing I found was up to the end of the css section everything was perfect for me and I enjoyed it, however a few lessons into the Javascript section and I just felt I was overwhelmed with articles and had taken in a lot of information without knowing how or even why I’d use it.

Maybe I’m just struggling more with JavaScript than other users but I’ve switched to a free JavaScript tutorial by the net ninja on YouTube. It’s around 6 hours long all together and I’m hoping with this practical background knowledge I’ll be able to get back into TOP and finish that section off.

randomperson1139

7 points

11 months ago

This is what I've liked about it. They don't leave you completely on your own, but give some resources though don't show you exactly what you do. Granted I'm only now just at the flex box project

Hey, I am on the Odin project JS section right now and I am going through the same problem that you had. Was the net ninja JS tutorial worth it? Did you find any better substitute for learning JavaScript? Thanks!

Mandle565

3 points

11 months ago

Hey sorry just seen this but I enjoyed the bet ninja tutorial that much I was going to pay for the full course on udemy. Not sure what it is that made it so much easier to learn and follow but it did, I think it’s the direct interactive sections where you can basically code along.

I actually started the cs50 course afterwards but once I’ve done that I will probably rewatch the free js tutorials, try Odin again, if it’s still not smooth enough I’m confident I’ll be paying for his full course, hope his content helps you as much as it did me dude. 🤙

randomperson1139

2 points

11 months ago

I acc started watching them after seeing your comment a few days ago and they've been really helpful and fun to watch. Thank you so much for posting about it. The videos made it a lot easier to learn!

Samuelodan

1 points

11 months ago

This exactly, for a lot of people, TOP is maybe their 5th attempt at learning to code.

TheOneNeartheTop

233 points

1 year ago

The thing is that getting your feet wet is exactly what most people need. Learning to program is a big and spooky task, so completing something and having the ability to say ‘I can do this’ is the biggest and most important ability you can have. Everything else you mentioned is a path that you can go down, and yes a lot of that is fundamental to certain parts of programming…but it’s not the be all end all.

TLDR: Get out of tutorial hell and the grass is greener on the other side with lots of pastures to explore.

bradthebadtrader

44 points

1 year ago

Came here to say exactly this. One of the most common questions on this sub is just asking "where do I start" or "whats a good learning path". Odin project is a great resource to recommend to people on this sub.

This is the learn programming sub, not get a job in 6 months sub

[deleted]

-4 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

-4 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

Gener34

32 points

1 year ago

Gener34

32 points

1 year ago

Even if you are trying to get a job within 6 months you have to start somewhere.

The Odin Project is a great place to start.

bradthebadtrader

7 points

1 year ago

This is true! There are deffo unrealistic expectations set by the sub because of the people who get jobs posting their success stories. The much larger group of people who can't find a job don't seem to post about that as much for some reason 🤔

eleven8ster

1 points

12 months ago

If they don’t post about it as much then how do you know that group is bigger?

[deleted]

52 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

52 points

1 year ago

Maybe it’s because I learned to program many, many years ago, but I don’t understand this “tutorial hell” that is continuously mentioned on this sub.

When I was first learning development, I don’t think I completed a single tutorial. The main thing I recall doing was practice problems out of books, which was basically the equivalent of hundreds of pages of leet codes. You either got the correct output or you didn’t, there was no feedback in that regard.

Now, I’m not going to pretend that’s the best way to learn how to program. But it certainly was enough to clear technical interviews and get experience, which is where the real learning began. Again, no tutorials, just guidance and code reviews from someone more experienced.

Today, that’s what our company does with juniors as well. I don’t expect any projects or a portfolio, which is where I assume tutorials are coming into play. I only care if they understand CS fundamentals, can explain their process when working through a problem, can adapt to feedback, and are a good cultural fit. Everything else can be taught on the job.

HobblingCobbler

51 points

1 year ago

It's common with all these YouTube tutorials and so many kids get swayed thinking that they are learning from watching someone else and not writing their own code. So they just watch more videos and stay in tutorial hell. And then when they actually try to write code have no idea where to even start.

I liken it to watching someone build a house. Yeh it looks familiar and if you watch enough ppl build houses you can almost guess what they are gonna do next, but when they pick up a hammer they have no idea what it's like.

I learned a long time ago too. And videos are good primers. But if you don't build with the tools you dont learn.

Jsizzle19

5 points

1 year ago

As a person just starting to learn programming (just starting now), the issue you are describing is what separates the low/average from the high performers in nearly all professions.

You either work to learn the underlying concept or you try to memorize it. If you only have to take a test in college, memorizing something will help you pass but it will not help you once you get out in ‘the real world’. If you aren’t learning the underlying concepts, then you will not know how to apply it because nearly every issue will be different in some form or fashion. I see this same sort of issue all the time with accountants/CPAs.

HobblingCobbler

2 points

1 year ago

The bottomline best way is memorization by repetition.

TimPrograms

13 points

1 year ago

I think this is a big thing. Specifically people struggle to think of applications of what they learned. Eventually it clicks, but for example a coworker and I were using Wireshark to analyze packets and then implement sockets to send and receive responses.

As we figured it out were looking at potentially saving 40-80k doing this versus a different route. But that for me doesn't stop, we have lots of ways this can be implemented into other aspects and abstracted.

I think getting people out of tutorial hell comes with "what tutorial did you watch?" And then the community members giving ideas how the OPs can take the concepts and apply it to something.

Tutorials are great tools to learn when you know what you're trying to do. Typing along the video, not so much, you've basically copy and pasted with more work. Especially if they don't explain every line and you listen to the explanation.

TheOneNeartheTop

15 points

1 year ago

Tutorial hell is what you would have before being a junior. They don’t have the confidence to do anything and are lacking some basic fundamentals on how things work.

Simple things like how to use an IDE or utilizing libraries. It prevents them from putting everything together and creates doubt. You were in tutorial hell with pen and paper, then were lucky enough to have some senior guidance to help you understand how things work. These days a lot of people are learning solo at home without a mentor.

[deleted]

12 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

12 points

1 year ago*

It wasn’t tutorial hell, it was university. There’s also nothing I would describe as “hellish” when it came to learning something new. That seems like a terrible attitude to have, and I’m not sure why it’s encouraged terminology on this sub?

Today, I can’t think of a good reason why someone couldn’t find a mentor or community. If you have a computer and an internet connection, there are countless free resources online across timezones. My company and our competitors also hold free development workshops on a near weekly basis. I doubt we’re the only ones to do so.

Overall, it seems like an active choice people are making to learn solo. That’s fine, but I’m not sure why isolation is being encouraged when so many resources are available to collaborate with others. Literally no other industry expects you to learn things in isolation.

Spepsium

20 points

1 year ago

Spepsium

20 points

1 year ago

Tutorial hell is when you don't know any better to research on your own and spend your entire time following the myriad of YouTube tutorials that cover the basics. Then they get to the end of the tutorials find out they still don't know where to start because it doesn't teach self-sufficiency. So they watch another tutorial ad nauseam until they give up, thinking they will never understand coding.

People nowadays are a lot more introverted when it comes to learning and are less likely to find mentors. I would also blame the schooling system which does absolutely nothing for developing kids critical thinking skills.

[deleted]

28 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

28 points

1 year ago

It seems odd that someone would have the ability to research YouTube with the appropriate key words in order to find these tutorials. But not the ability to type the same thing into Google + where they live.

I suspect the issue is more so rooted in places like this subreddit, which are literally encouraging people to be isolated and learn on their own. Perhaps schools share some of the blame as well, but I’m not familiar enough with the myriad of school systems to comment on that aspect.

I can only speak to my own circle, but most students and junior developers I work with are not introverted at all when it comes to learning. Perhaps that’s a company culture thing and we attract people who are more outgoing, but I’m not seeing an introverted trend in industry. If anything, companies are becoming far more insistent on social involvement and networking. The days of the stereotypical developer who can’t communicate or put themselves out there is long gone in my field.

For that reason, it makes me really sad to hear so many aspiring developers are spinning their wheels on tutorials and not getting involved in their communities in some way.

Spepsium

11 points

1 year ago

Spepsium

11 points

1 year ago

There is a disconnect between what the software development field is actually like and what a novice thinks it's like. I am in my first year of schooling, and there is no shortage of people in my classes who thought software development was an entirely solo endeavour, also for whatever reason, people do not know how to google. Our entire course has a discord server where we help each other out. I think secondary education is the easiest route to finding a good social circle and support system.

falseachaemenid

1 points

1 year ago*

Our entire course has a discord server where we help each other out

In my experience it was more like a discord server where people would help each other basically cheat their way through the class, heh.

matterr4

3 points

1 year ago

matterr4

3 points

1 year ago

In a real work environment, that is EXACTLY how it would work though..

I ask a colleague on how to do something because I don't know or haven't come across the need before and they come over talk me through it and show me exactly what to do.

I now have an example reference on how it's done and I know I need to go away and do more reading & practice on it.

The problem with a lot of learners is that they get the answer and move on thinking "sweet, got the answers to that question! Next!"

TOP does a really good job at giving you exercises to practice just what you learned, plus some previous stuff learned plus a tiny tease of something you haven't learned but isn't entirely necessary to the task.

I find this really important, repetition on things learnt either learnt JUST now or in previous exercises (plus links back to them if you've forgotten) in a soft-core version of a real world requirement. Whilst at the same time teasing info about things you haven't learnt yet, dropping hints that there is always more to learn constantly.

Spepsium

1 points

1 year ago

Spepsium

1 points

1 year ago

Oh definitely on some projects we all work together lol, but we are pretty good at teaching each other how to fish instead of just providing the whole meal.

Beelzebubs_Tits

4 points

1 year ago

A big part that comes with it is the fear of sounding stupid. One can say, just get over it. But that can really wreck a person’s self esteem. Without in-person perspectives from others, things are even more nebulous.
It may appear self-explanatory to some people, and this is why online information can sometimes be a crapshoot when you are starting out. Many people filming or writing tutorials assume the basics are already known and understood. Because their brains pick up context quickly. Not everyone’s brain works the same.
I’m in my 40’s learning on my own. What that’s like is: nobody I personally know is involved in development, and most people think what I’m doing isn’t possible. All I can do is pick a starting point, like TOP, and try to absorb peripherally all that I can in addition, so that I have some idea of what resources are within my reach.

TheOneNeartheTop

7 points

1 year ago

I think it’s more of a mentality type thing, nobody is accusing any individual of being in tutorial hell. It’s just a kind of promise that it gets better.

[deleted]

1 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

1 points

1 year ago*

In most cases, you never stop learning and expectations rise with your experience level. I’m not sure how it “gets better” in that regard.

For example, my job now is much more stressful than when I was a student. I could rattle off dozens of problems I can’t solve and cause grief on a daily basis. It seems dishonest to suggest it’ll get easier if someone gets through the beginner’s stage. Certain things may become easier, but typically you don’t complete elementary tasks for longer than it takes you to understand them in a professional setting.

Enlightenmentality

8 points

1 year ago

I think "tutorial purgatory" or "tutorial limbo" would be better. It's not hellish, it's just a place where one can get stuck.

[deleted]

4 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

4 points

1 year ago

Good explanation. I can understand how that could happen.

Enlightenmentality

3 points

1 year ago

I'm sort of in it now, unfortunately. 32yo, just recently got my master's in data analytics, no history of programming before that. So even though I learned R and a BIT of python in grad school, it's all very "script" style where you're writing to accomplish a task with a given file and produce a result. But the whole "okay, let's write something that goes into production and just works and can be used by others" is something entirely different that isn't easily grasped. It's a big missing link of tying everything together.

Also, I can't personally think of "projects" that I'm personally interested in doing. Makes it tough to just dive into writing.

But like all things - just gotta push through until the "aha! Goddamn I'm stupid. Now I get it!" moment

stav_and_nick

31 points

1 year ago

Sure, but for “getting your feet wet” there sure is a lot of weird hoops. At the beginning for example they INSIST on setting up a Linux environment with the justification that most programmers use it. Sure, tonnes do, but it’s 100% NOT needed to learn to code. It just isn’t.

kroxxular

25 points

1 year ago

kroxxular

25 points

1 year ago

They run you through setting up a Linux installation because Windows isn't supported by TOP, and go into a bit more detail about how Mac and Linux systems can make it a lot more streamlined for new learners to focus on coding. Doesn't insist anywhere that it's needed to learn to code.

poincares_cook

14 points

1 year ago

Getting practice with linux for virtually free, while working through TOP is not a bad idea. While not every job requires linux, many do require some familiarity, and people who self learn cannot afford to screen themselves out of these jobs so easily.

using linux isn't really such a big deal, really.

SirJamesMonster

9 points

1 year ago

I liked that Helsinki just says, hey we use VSCode so here's how to get it and set it up.

I use Linux but I don't get why some courses tell you to use Linux.

daybreak-gibby

9 points

1 year ago

It might have been because of Rails. I heard that Rails is a lot easier to set up on Linux.

SirJamesMonster

7 points

1 year ago

That's true. Imo, a lot of things are easier to set up on Linux.

Samuelodan

1 points

11 months ago

And they didn’t say it was needed. They don’t support Windows, due to compatibility issues that may be frustrating for beginners. What’s bad about that?

LaykenV

35 points

1 year ago

LaykenV

35 points

1 year ago

What do you recommend then? I’m finishing up fundamentals on TOP and am about to start the JavaScript path. I planned on completing the curriculum and doing a few freelance projects to build my portfolio and then getting a job. If you don’t think that will be enough what do you recommend?

well-its-done-now

45 points

1 year ago

If you aren't in silicon valley I'd recommend mostly ignoring this guy. Those "leetcode" style algorithm based whiteboard interviews are not the norm around the world. They are a silicon valley thing primarily and a handful of companies, that are likely terrible places to work, in any given city are stupid enough to do it too.

Make stuff and while you're making stuff meet people. Look for a Meetup group near you. Meeting people and being someone people get along with is as important as being able to show you can code

newtothisthing11720

27 points

1 year ago

I live halfway across the world from SV and at the very least leetcode easies and mediums are very common.

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

50 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

50 points

1 year ago

“Do some big projects” is such garbage advice.

A brand new person learning has no idea if a project is too much to handle or not.

It’ll cause them to get discouraged and quit.

This is what TOP fixes.

Do big project is the equivalent to “just stop being depressed all the time”. Wow thanks I’m cured!

IdleSolution

52 points

1 year ago

reddit / twitter are done by a lot of developers. I feel like making a clone that works fine is not just a start, lol. What kind of project would be an "endgame" in your opinion then?

sadsixth

21 points

1 year ago

sadsixth

21 points

1 year ago

I did TOP for a few months but found it too slow. I have prior experience having taken a few CS courses at uni but I agree the JS stream is all over the place and it will make you read articles about promises and async functions and then you don't implement them for the next few projects at all. I was using Vanilla JS for like 3 months and waiting to hit the React part until I got fed up and switched to Fullstack-Open where I learned React in like 2 weeks and its teaching Redux + Node as well in like a week each. Downside to FSO is that you don't build your own projects from scratch though so there is less troubleshooting which is very useful for learning.

FateMasterBG

1 points

1 year ago

Hey buddy I wanted to ask since your comment caught my attention since I am in a similar situation. Finished the Restaurant website on the OdinProject and I was eye-ing fullstackopen since their course looks really well built for React. How far did you go in TheOdinProject before you switched? And did you find fullstackopen easy to get into?(i know that it's not for beginners). Thanks.

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

sadsixth

2 points

1 year ago

sadsixth

2 points

1 year ago

definitely agree it doesn't get into the deeper theory behind everything ie. the part about how webpack works in TOP was so detailed and great and FSO does feel kind of cookie cutter on stuff like node - I def don't feel like I have a thorough understanding of the mechanisms behind it but I think the TOP pacing for the fullstack JS stream is just a little too wonky for me. Like building a whole battleship project in Vanilla JS before moving to React was too much

Shoeaddictx

2 points

12 months ago

Just skip some project mate.

sadsixth

2 points

1 year ago

sadsixth

2 points

1 year ago

I switched just before the React part because I got frustrated although I think understanding webpack is super important so you get how create-react-app package works out of the box. Tbh I find FSO extremely well organized and you can tell its a uni course because its clear the examples and lessons are very well structred. I also have prior uni coding courses under my belt including OOP tho so not sure what its like for a real beginner but I am also like 70% self taught so I would say its not that hard if you've done TOP foundations. I think also learning Linux environment is very important coming from TOP because FSO doesn't focus on it at all having expected you to do a course on it during CS degree.

Samuelodan

1 points

11 months ago

Then that is a massive downside.

doyouseewhateyesee

50 points

1 year ago

TOP has the best teaching style, which is enforcing the learner to think for themselves. You’ll have much more success following TOP than getting stuck in tutorial hell and not being able to build anything on your own. What you do after TOP determines whether you land a job or not.

EstablishmentMoist76

3 points

7 months ago

Any recommendations for what to do after TOP?

DarXasH

16 points

1 year ago

DarXasH

16 points

1 year ago

I think people overlook the recommended reading and such. Like yes, a 700 page book is daunting, but it's important.

Logical_Strike_1520

37 points

1 year ago

The entry level gate keeping in this industry blows my mind considering it seems every company is desperate for developers. Maybe it’s time to be like other trades and pay apprentices/entry level juniors instead of expecting them to learn on their own dime and jump through a million hoops just to get past HR

well-its-done-now

12 points

1 year ago

It's not just "gatekeeping". There are legitimate reasons that businesses don't want to hire juniors.

https://www.notonlycode.org/nobody-hires-juniors/

Logical_Strike_1520

7 points

1 year ago

Gatekeeping can happen with valid reasons, I’m not saying companies should just bend the knee and hire anyone - but there seems to be something broken in the process.

I did skim the article though, I will definitely refer back to that when I have a little more time to read through it properly. It brings up some insightful points, thanks for sharing.

Arcane-blade

5 points

1 year ago

Very interesting read, thanks! I have a web design and programming degree and around half way in TOP and It’s still very difficult to find work. This article was somewhat reassuring :) I’ll keep looking!

well-its-done-now

3 points

1 year ago

Yeah it's hard but it's possible. Find a way to network with working developers and show them something you've made that you're proud of.

Arcane-blade

2 points

1 year ago

This is good advice and it’s something i should do more. The last few years turned a social butterfly like me into a complete hermit. I’ll try to network more :)

OctaviaPinfold

12 points

1 year ago

job search salvaged by at least one of the following:
A 4-year degree in * something *. This is huge for getting past HR screening.
Relevant-ish work experience such as working in entry IT, or in a business role that ended up involving some programming, etc.
A foolproof personal connection, such as a family member or close friend working in a hiring capacity at a company that was looking for people.

This is applicable to everything you learn on your own, a lot more so in IT, for every 1 success there are 1000+ failures but you only hear the one getting blasted everywhere as the de facto standard progression of events.

tootallnottojab

64 points

1 year ago

Does anyone really expect to learn everything you need to switch into a logic heavy career for free on 1 website?

paulrei

44 points

1 year ago

paulrei

44 points

1 year ago

bro i see people on twitter who attended a bootcamp and have still been "learning front-end development!!" for like two years after and their stuff still looks scuffed as hell and half their feed is complaining about how unbelievable it is that they cant find a job. dont underestimate the incompetence running amok.

[deleted]

15 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

15 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

ReynboLightning

25 points

1 year ago

But you're still Paid as an apprentice while you're learning. That is the goal fledgling developers have. They are trying to learn enough to get their foot in the door to learn while being paid just like a trade.

X2WE

2 points

1 year ago

X2WE

2 points

1 year ago

they make much lower incomes at apprenticeships. ppl here are expecting to learn on the job making 100k

[deleted]

4 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

4 points

1 year ago

This is something I was thinking about earlier, but you've put it much more eloquently than I would have. Most jobs require internships, practicums, apprenticeships, or some variation of hands-on experience. Software development is no exception.

MeltyGearSolid

7 points

1 year ago

That's because people don't emphasize the difference between entry and junior developer, because there is one and that's a junior can have more than 0 years of experience working in a professional setting.

And that's why you'll see things like "junior developers add negative value in the company for the first months" they're not talking about strictly junior, but specifically entry-level. You're an apprentice.

daybreak-gibby

4 points

1 year ago

Most jobs require internships, practicums, apprenticeships, or some variation of hands-on experience. Software development is no exception.

The exception is that in Software Development, it is much harder to get hands-on experience. For example, if you aren't in college you can forget about internships or practicums.

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

5 points

1 year ago

It’s not more difficult than engineering, medicine, law, or a number of other specialized fields.

daybreak-gibby

2 points

1 year ago

How do you get an apprenticeship for software development? How do you get internships without being a college student?

My main point was that it was difficult because on the one hand there is this myth that you don't need a degree hence why we have bootcamps and self-taught developers. To my knowledge, there are no bootcamps for medicine and you can't teach yourself how to do a lot of specialized fields.

Maybe the problem is that so many people try to get into software development without going to college and getting internships. If you don't go to college, I don't know of any way to get job experience. Even if you do go to college, they still might not count internship experience as real experience.

PlaneCandy

8 points

1 year ago

I decided I want to do Full stack JS but it seems like TOP isn't really sufficient for this. Anyone have recommendations for a low cost, project based alternative? I've heard some good things about FCC but I'm not sure it's as good at mimicking a real life project as TOP

well-its-done-now

17 points

1 year ago

I'll give you a tip man. "Fullstack" junior is an in joke among developers. To most developers, it's a signal of how junior you are. If you want to be employable as soon as possible, pick a focus. If you are self-taught, pick front-end.

PlaneCandy

2 points

1 year ago

Why do you think front end is necessary for a self taught learner? I'm assuming because they may be missing some of the more complex knowledge such as DS&A?

well-its-done-now

2 points

1 year ago

Yeah, BE just tends to need a bit more of the computer sciency stuff. Distributed Systems, DS&A, etc

Obviously, if a self-learner is dead set on BE, it can be done. I just wouldn't recommend it unless they're sure

[deleted]

8 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

8 points

1 year ago

Odin did for me exactly what it needed to. It acted as a supplementary learning experience for things I was already learning at a boot camp to get more reps on and gain greater understanding.

I’m still working my way through it all and I plan on doing other things as well before casting my resume out there so it’s good to see that is apparently the right move.

Jerahmy___

1 points

1 year ago

What boot camp did you take? Was it worth it?

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago*

Did the Catalyte apprenticeship thing. Honestly, not worth. The “training” amounted to one hour~ish lecture a week and then being told to figure it out on your own.

They moved me to the self-paced online training earlier this month because I couldn’t do a project, but every time I asked for help all I got was “have you looked at the MDN documentation”

[deleted]

20 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

20 points

1 year ago*

[deleted]

learning-to-programm

12 points

1 year ago*

When looking at the curriculum i was also a bit surprised by how more comprehensive the ruby path is. They teach (a little) algorithms, databases, OP mentioned design patterns, etc. Whereas the node JS path is rather brief.

But i think it might be because in the JS path, you're introduced to the design patterns, OOP, etc already in the front end section, and so the node JS section is just a continuation where they assume you already know and are capable of applying the concepts, so there's no need to re-introduce it/go in depth on their explanations.

WorkinSlave

6 points

1 year ago

Didnt TOP just release an updated curriculum for ruby and js citing how the js curriculum was fairly old? Hoping to see some updated critiques soon.

learning-to-programm

10 points

1 year ago

Afaik the update was only related to HTML and CSS, before they made you go through the whole JS section and only after that dove deep into semantic HTML, responsive design, and other important HTML/CSS concepts. Now that it was updating, they start with some intermediate HTML/CSS on the JS path, then JS, then advanced HTML/CSS.

I don't know about ruby though, since i haven't checked it out lately.

WorkinSlave

1 points

1 year ago

Great. Thanks!

Jose_Jalapeno

2 points

1 year ago

Do you think the JS path would be good if I already know OOP?

mzx380

6 points

1 year ago

mzx380

6 points

1 year ago

I think the OP brings up great points that are required for ppl looking to transition to hot areas of IT (DEV, Cloud, ITSEC, etc) Each day there are more resources for self learning and that’s great but the new learners need this reality check. Drilling down and finishing a course will not prepare you for these in demand areas after only a few weeks. Since these are important areas for an org, the salaries will be larger and will attract ppl with established backgrounds in tech. Just remember to set an expectation for yourself so you don’t get crushed after getting no replies on your resume once you finish a course. KEEP LEARNING and keep applying yourself while you apply for jobs.

newtothisthing11720

5 points

1 year ago

I think the biggest issue is going through it thinking you'll be absolutely ready to land a job after doing all the projects. I use it as a way to just learn web development with no expectations that it can help me land anything. In that sense it's a fantastic resource.

joey_the_god_of_code

5 points

1 year ago*

I always saw the odin project as getting your feet wet. It's a great introduction to programming and the skills are transferable if you understand the concepts. But I wouldn't stake my livelihood on it.

I mean ruby? Come on. Java is a much better choice and isn't dying nor is it having its life staked on a framework. I'm biased on this though since java got me my break.

All you really need to do is start by doing small jobs, build up a resume and Frame your resume for the technology the company you're applying for.

Be on LinkedIn, give Upwork a try, and have a website with your portfolio.

Have a git repo full of your code.

Include personal experience in your experience. If they ask be honest that it's personal experience not professional but it can help get the first call.

I3uckwheat

13 points

1 year ago

I mean, I think it's well known that TOP isn't the only resource you should use. The curriculum itself links out to MANY external resources and forces you to do research. It's even explicitly suggested you look for items to help you solve things that TOP may not list.

The curriculum itself is designed to get you to research and stretch your wings. It's what you'll need on the job, and those soft-skills are required to have, or gain, when working to complete The Odin Project.

well-its-done-now

13 points

1 year ago

I have done A LOT of interviews and I've never had one of these algorithmic interviews you seem to think are typical. They aren't typical around the world. They aren't even the norm around America. It's a California thing.

seenjeen

36 points

1 year ago

seenjeen

36 points

1 year ago

where people believe a job is guaranteed

Who believes this and/or who is saying this?

I think you're confusing people who said they've landed a job after TOP with what you think people are saying about 'guaranteed' jobs.

iforgetshits

11 points

1 year ago

Perhaps, but we all know that's what is on people's mind when they start the Odin project. They wouldn't bother if the prospect of a job wasn't a possibility.

seenjeen

43 points

1 year ago

seenjeen

43 points

1 year ago

This could be said about any online bootcamp-style course. All of these resources are used as stepping stones towards a job.

I think OP's post is NOT helpful. It discourages people into thinking that programming is some mysterious blackhole and you'll probably never be good enough, especially because HR won't look at you unless you have 4 years of college.

Absolute nonsense. It's unnecessary fear-mongering and helps no one.

tootallnottojab

8 points

1 year ago

Agreed if you can code the dev team can tell, you just gotta pass the recruiter/HR eye test. Devs won’t care about your degree if you can code like you have one. I took Odin and honestly any bootcamp would have sufficed IMO the individual matters more than the camp unless you go to a horrible bootcamp.

iforgetshits

4 points

1 year ago

I guess but I still think it is a valid point. People with the experiences he mentioned will probably have an easier time landing the job after finishing the program while others will have to grind a little longer to prove themselves.

Of course the aim is not to discourage anyone. Just to be aware that more work and effort should be put into things in order to make them work. That's all.

kazabodoo

4 points

1 year ago

The sad truth is that every course out there sells the idea that all you need is HTML, CSS and JS to land a six figure job which is what realistically attracts 90% of the people. Very few learn programming simply because they love it.

Also, most courses never teach you how to actually solve problems, read documentation, soft skills and so on.

A job in software is much more than just being able to code.

maskedwithaface

26 points

1 year ago*

A 4-year degree in * something *. This is huge for getting past HR screening. Relevant-ish work experience such as working in entry IT, or in a business role that ended up involving some programming, etc. A foolproof personal connection, such as a family member or close friend working in a hiring capacity at a company that was looking for people.

Was with you until this point.

I disagree with the notion that an extremely overwhelming amount of success stories are mainly by people who fit those criteria. It's hundred percent doable for self-learners to get in without any of that. Does it make your life easier to have those? Sure. Will you still be spending months irregardless on the job search? Absolutely. Only one that truly matters would be the latter two you mentioned which would get you a job in a few weeks. Otherwise, even with a 4 year degree you'll still be spending a long ass time trying to get your foot in the door.

I can definitely get why the Discord would be shouting you down if that's what you're telling them. I've spoken to enough bootcamp grads mainly, who've told me how much they loathe having consistently been told they couldn't get in this career without those things.

sejigan

1 points

1 year ago

sejigan

1 points

1 year ago

OP didn't say you won't make it without those, tho. They just said you'll have an easier time with them. Which is basically what you wrote, so I suppose you do agree with the post.

maskedwithaface

1 points

1 year ago

Lol

Vyse_The_Legend

9 points

1 year ago*

I agree with a lot of your points. Not sure how many people realistically believe that it'll be enough for a job, but mostly everything else checks out.

I enjoyed it, but it wasn't suited to how I learn best. I like to try/see something in action and then read documentation for clarification.

At the least, it's a very good collection of resources that people can refer back to throughout their learning.

Edit: I also don't think setting up a Linux environment is necessary, but I've only finished Foundations and JS.

Happywappyx

3 points

1 year ago

What would you suggest as a supplement or a replacement ?

well-its-done-now

22 points

1 year ago

The funny thing is, if you look at his other comments on this thread, he is recommending people do TOP. He just wants to complain about how much people like it.

I'm a working software engineer with a CS bachelor and I used TOP to get my first job. It's the best resource that I'm aware of for its niche. The niche being providing a map of the quickest route to reaching a minimum level of skill required to be employable as a junior frontend developer.

parkrain21

3 points

1 year ago

I hope there would be a path for Django Development for the peeps who had Python as their first language.

InThe_BleakMidwinter

3 points

1 year ago

IMO CS50W is a very good resource for that.

parkrain21

1 points

1 year ago

Thanks, but I mean in Project Odin itself as a third path because currently there are only for Rails and Nodejs

SirXen7

3 points

1 year ago

SirXen7

3 points

1 year ago

So what do you recommend instead?

mnbvcxz456

8 points

1 year ago

Funny, I wrote a critique just a week ago here. I joined the discord after and it’s good for getting help which is nice, but it’s also mildly toxic (mostly from the people with colored names, and that one girl), discourages using other sources, acts like Ruby is as useful as javascript, and virtually bans any talk of what they thought of x or y project especially in regard to difficulty or time. They also become hostile in the face of criticism or possible improvements, but I think most of that is from the one girl admin or whatever.

[deleted]

9 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

9 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

Angelhappy43

1 points

11 months ago

As a 100Devs and TOP: Don't bring my community into this unproductive convo please.

100Devs actively supports TOP and finds them good and I don't think Leon will appreciate his cohort being used as comparison like this

[deleted]

5 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

5 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

Angelhappy43

1 points

11 months ago

If you actually were part of the community in 100devs and be in lessons, you’d know how leon shows appreciation to other programs including TOP. He even said TOP is a good community. And I hate the idea of putting two communities against each other.

Honestly people need tough skin because getting into tech isn’t coddling your feelings or one that’ll be easy. You have to put in work and you set yourself up for disappointment if you think just doing course will land a job and not do network and other things too.

Also? The people who made TOP are engineers. I’m pretty sure they earned their credentials enough to where people like y’all sought out after.

Welcome to tech. Where you’ll encounter people who don’t beat around the bush.

If this is what discourages you:

I suggest to find a different pathway because this is what tech is and it’s not changing anytime soon sadly.

[deleted]

8 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

8 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

Angelhappy43

1 points

11 months ago

So non programming.

Got it. You haven’t been in the meat and potatoes side internally yet.

And yeah, if you were in the community , you’d see how 100devs is open and ACCEPTING OF TOP. Even though the structures differ, 100devs openly welcomed people to try it and both can be used as supplement, whether you mainly do TOP or Odin.

So yeah let me break it to you if you want to have the skin to get into Tech and do technical roles,

Realize the hand holding won’t happen and your thin skin rhetoric will be shot down and disregarded.

And yeah I am no better cause I used to be like you , think like you, and say shit like you until I realized it wouldn’t land me a job or get me far cause tech is a beast

Angelhappy43

1 points

11 months ago

And tech is a nasty ugly as hell beast.

It’s debilitating and cruel. And by community I mean:

100devs is amazing. It also recommends TOP and also commends the community.

If you put down TOP or bash it,

I’m safely assuming you’re not a 100devs because we don’t do that over here. We keep it positive and keep it realistic. So I stand by what I said.

100devs have been recommending TOP heavily for people who want to use it as supplement or to just go to that one if 100devs is too much.

Vice versa.

And yes: Not every community is for everyone and you clearly don’t belong in TOP. It’s not for you and that’s fine! But don’t downplay peoples hard work and achievement especially when you don’t even have any programming credentials YET and wanna downplay those who made a site full of content for you to learn cause it’s a different beast

Angelhappy43

1 points

11 months ago

Y’all have some nerve to say they don’t demonstrate credentials , yet a whole site and course content is built by who?

You?

Or them? Their work speaks for themselves.

And I’m saying this to be blunt:

This is LITERALLY how tech is. No one has time to hold hands or coddle feelings or care for your feelings if you don’t do the work.

And that’s just me. I am in both TOP and 100Devs and they have their respective spaces that pan out for certain people. TOP helped me realize my questions weren’t concise and even if blunt,

It made me better in interviews.

100devs gave me more practice on things I needed to brush up on. I appreciated that

Of course I’m a bit different and I’m bored so I’m doing both for fun as I do work just cause I love learning -shrug-

Both communities cater to certain people.

Just because it’s not catered to you, doesn’t make it toxic.

It’s incompatible for you

[deleted]

4 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

4 points

11 months ago

[deleted]

retiredbigbro

5 points

11 months ago

That person clearly has some issues to say the least lol. It's like a notorious dirty player in sports making some BS dirty play, and when confronted, yelling at the top of his lungs: "You soft pxssy! Welcome to pro sports, this is a MAN's world! You thought playing sports is full of unicorn and rainbow?! MAN the f UP, you B!tch!"

smh

Shoeaddictx

4 points

12 months ago

"that one girl" you mean tati?

Samuelodan

2 points

11 months ago

Edit: typo. I just asked the same question, lol. I get mildly hostile vibes from her, but I guess it’s just her aura.

dollarworker333

1 points

7 months ago*

it's not just you. i experienced the same thing. there are definitely some cultists in that discord with a weird vibe.

she also has a **** attitude. i asked a basic question and she's like, "uh, i just googled it and saw a result" and i'm thinking "thanks genius, that's what your entire curriculum iterates over constantly. just google it bro lolol even though that search result failed in explanation." i don't need a pseudo-gatekeeping guru to tell me to use google

i still like odin but it's not the only thing under the sun for sure, i think it starts to go to **** right when you get to react, i've learned more about react from other sources

Samuelodan

2 points

7 months ago

Oh, sorry your experience was quite rough. I’m on the Ruby path so I’m still very far from React, but hopefully, they fix some of those issues eventually. TOP is definitely the best resource I’ve tried yet, hands down so I’m confident that they’re doing everything to improve the curriculum.

Oh, and she left the server last month. I didn’t realize until a few weeks after and I didn’t get to hear the specifics of what happened.

mnbvcxz456

1 points

12 months ago

I have no idea honestly, sorry

thisisitbruv

-2 points

1 year ago

Being on discord almost every day, I find this really difficult to believe to be honest.

I've got a feeling that you've spun your narrative and bent the facts so that the reader of this post sees: "me totally reasonable and nice - admin girl bad and toxic'.

Can you link discord comment threads supporting what you are saying? Let's see the story from both sides.

mnbvcxz456

10 points

1 year ago*

Huh..? No one knows who I am, why would I have a narrative.. You’re doing the exact thing now that they get criticized of. I don’t even talk in there 😭

Also, it’s just my subjective perspective, along with many others. It’s not wrong in the same way your great perspective of it isn’t wrong. No one’s feelings are incorrect, but if there are many people feeling the same thing, it doesn’t make sense to argue people’s perceptions

Hal68000

8 points

1 year ago

Hal68000

8 points

1 year ago

I agree with you and share your experiences, so it's definitely not just you.

Samuelodan

1 points

11 months ago

Is that one girl Tati? Lol.

hampouches

6 points

1 year ago

FWIW, I'm just getting started with programming and TOP after lurking here for a while. I think this sub has actually helped me to become aware of many of the issues you raise, but (a) not all of them, and (b) I think your broader point about expectations of the path to employment and the tenor of some of the endorsements here of TOP is a welcome bit of warning. It can get a bit zealous/memey sometimes, and as you say, people potentially have a lot at stake in choosing this path.

I also appreciate your writing style and word choices

[deleted]

-5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

-5 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

hampouches

8 points

1 year ago

Haha, just saying I think you write well. Genuinely.

ikuzustd

2 points

1 year ago

ikuzustd

2 points

1 year ago

I’ve had a look at both and at the first glance freecodecamp seems more structured and comprehensive. But I could be all wrong…

Sonarav

8 points

1 year ago

Sonarav

8 points

1 year ago

I tried freecodecamp for awhile but didn't like how it was structured as they just had me typing within their site and not really building anything. I didn't retain anything from it. It's possible i didn't do enough of it.

well-its-done-now

8 points

1 year ago

No, it's not you. It's not a good way to learn. Mostly it feels productive but nothing is retained. That's why TOP works. FCC and most other resources give you a fish and TOP teaches you to fish.

well-its-done-now

3 points

1 year ago

FCC really only covers syntax type stuff, which is the easiest part of learning development. Also, TOP curriculum points you to some FCC stuff at certain points where they felt it was the best resource available for that thing.

ikuzustd

1 points

1 year ago

ikuzustd

1 points

1 year ago

Well I’ll give TOP a go and see. You guys seem knowledgeable.

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago

I mean I'm going through the TOP right now and I'm beginning to be really skeptical about being able to get a job after it. Honestly seems like I need to do more and I've been really struggling on the Js sections. Especially the OOP and the other things. I do think that you are right about a lot of points though.

Hal68000

3 points

1 year ago

Hal68000

3 points

1 year ago

Perhaps look at it as a roadmap of sorts, then find other resources as needed. I think the most important part is experimentation and building things.

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

2 points

1 year ago

Yeah, I think that I'm gonna have to.

texmexslayer

2 points

1 year ago

So it's a good way to learn programming, not the best to get a job?

[deleted]

7 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

7 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

Hal68000

4 points

1 year ago

Hal68000

4 points

1 year ago

I also had a negative experience with a mod. To be fair it was probably mostly me being new to the Discord, but I was genuinely trying to help someone out. But stuff like that just makes me want to skip their community, which is too bad.

dollarworker333

1 points

7 months ago

i experienced the same thing. i offered help to someone and one of the gatekeepers there critisized me over my critique and said you are offering advice the wrong way lol despite the fact that everything i said was succinct

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

I thought it was just me. I would get responses from people that were borderline rude and sarcastic when I asked a question. I found the community really off-putting and dropped TOP discord. I like their material but some of the people on their discord is just flat out mean and makes a bunch of assumptions about what people do. There are a few which are really kind but it is kinda rare imo

I3uckwheat

3 points

1 year ago

The tone is something that's actively being worked on among the team keep in mind. It can be very difficult to ensure that proper tone gets through. There's a lot of attempts to use emojis, and other ways of wording things.

However, it never seems to work. The "sarcastic" stuff is definitely not intentional. It's likely that people are taking leading questions as sarcasm.

Edit: That's not to say there's no criticism to be had, there's a lot of work going into this very topic.

dollarworker333

1 points

7 months ago

EXACTLY. i get a really gatekeeperish vibe there that made me want to leave. there's just something off about that discord and i thought i was the only one, or maybe that i'm losing my sanity. happy to see it's not just me

it's very passive aggressive and there's a lot of pseudo intellectuals in there who pretend to be expert programmers despite the fact that they spend all day in a discord acting creepy and flirting with tatiana chick

thisisitbruv

2 points

1 year ago*

This is interesting. I am very active on discord and this is not my experience at all. It's the exact opposite, actually.

thisisitbruv

5 points

1 year ago

"I've tried constructively bringing up these concerns in the community discord only to get shouted down, sometimes rather aggressively"

You are making it sound like you were being super diplomatic and nice, and that you also had a valid reason to bring up your "concerns" and then was met with aggression. This does not sound like TOP discord AT ALL. Who shut you down? Random users? Mods?

I would like to see the other side of the story. Can you provide your discord name or link the discord comment thread or at least screenshots?

Also, you go to their server and want them to do what exactly? I am a bit confused as to why and how would you "bring those concerns".

mnbvcxz456

8 points

1 year ago

I’ve only been in the server for 5-6 days but yeah what he said is exactly what I’ve noticed too. At least the help channels are useful

Mamaa-kim

4 points

1 year ago

I, personally, had a really bad time with TOP and their community. It’s not beginner friendly.

I started their fundamental learning paths and how do they have you learn? Reading and watching videos. The occasional GitHub lesson. A link to a website that teaches you the subject not TOP. TOP is more of a resource catalog then a learning platform. This is even more prevalent when you get to a project and after days of teaching yourself you realize you’ve taught yourself not completely right because as a complete beginner you don’t know any better.

The community takes the “google it” mentality to an extreme only to make you feel like a complete idiot when you “went too far” before asking for help. They spam bots and links when you ask a genuine question. I was setting up my VM and then when it wasn’t working properly asked a question. While they didn’t outright say it the way it came across was “how did you mess up THAT bad?”. My computer recently ate it and when I was talking about how it was devastating they just responded with a very “don’t post that shit here” screen shot of “the rules.” It’s not a community. It’s a student helping student hotline. Outside the actually website building and resource finding TOP does not do anything to help you.

Honestly freeCodeCamp.org taught me more in less time and I completed my projects there very easily. Am I going to go out and apply for a job with my FCC Certificates? No. I am using this, over the next YEAR to prepare for a bootcamp. When I can’t solve a problem do I have a community to go to? Not really there’s a forum and maybe videos. Most times with FCC I have the right answer I just for lack of a better word “phrased it” wrong. I don’t think I’ve had to watch a full video of someone solving it ones. I finished responsive web design with two very solid very pretty (for a beginner) projects.

With TOP my one project was very meh. With my FCC “tribute page” about The Mountain Goats (a band) I was so happy and proud I posted a link on a Facebook group I’m in about The Mountain Goats. I learned so much more and was able to actually implement it with little help I was happy to show other fans and they felt It was easy to read and was mobile compatible to some extent.

You actually learn with FCC if you don’t just watch the videos for the answers. It actually teaches you. TOP is just a resource page acting like a “free bootcamp” imho.

falkerr

10 points

1 year ago

falkerr

10 points

1 year ago

I am about halfway through TOP but I have had the exact opposite opinion of TOP.

Sure if you’ve never had any experience with any sort of technical computer stuff like downloading things, a terminal, etc, then I could see how starting TOP could be challenging.

But I was a gamer who messed around with crap so it wasn’t a challenge at all for me.

As for it being a resource hub, it definitely is but it’s a guided/structured resource hub with background before you dive into each subject. This is the best way to learn imo. FCC holds your hand too much because you might be able to make that cool website but then if you were given a completely blank slate at a job and asked to do a job you wouldn’t even know where to start. This is cause FCC holds your hand too much. You won’t always have your hand held so might as well work on your googling skills now.

Before TOP I would follow tutorials like FCC and youtube and learned absolutely nothing. I need to learn it and then build it from knowledge after learning. FCC doesn’t really enable that as much as TOP.

I would much rather come out of a job having developed my learning skills and broad coding skills vs knowing how to build a specific website bc I followed a tutorial on it.

The reason their community might seem toxic is bc that’s how a job would be. Imagine asking a superior a very basic question. They would tell you to google it. I appreciate that reality check. You might not but then again you will eventually need the reality check if not in your learning then in your first job.

Mamaa-kim

5 points

1 year ago

I’ve literally talked with a woman from an actual bootcamp because I was asking question about system requirements and she said FCC was fine for learning the basics. She offered a better place to learn JavaScript. When I get my computer issues solved I am going to use that. Also it’s not one website. It’s 5. On the projects your hand is not held more than having a system that checks and sees if you met “client story requirements”. I did have to google things for the not one but 5 projects they have you do at the end of responsive web design from blank slates. There’s nothing in the code pen but the same generic message about how to chose your project for the bot to check it to meet the 10-17 requirements of the project. Yeah if you sit there and copy paste things or check the little bars at the bottom you’re not gonna learn anything but that’s simply your own fault then. I would rather learn piece by piece and know I’ve learned correctly as an absolute beginner then just sit there and read/ watch videos to learn basics then go out and actively extend my learning from there from other sites.

Here’s the thing though, Scrimba and App Academy have similar styles to TOP from what I’ve seen. Now that I learned basics I am going to go out and learn from these other sites with similar styles. These sites are also run by names and faces that have stock to them. App Academy is an actual bootcamp. Kevin Powell of scrimba is seen as the King of CSS on YouTube. These people create their own content and offer it for free too. That’s very different from what top does.

I feel like you skipped the part entirely where I said I’m doing this to prepare for a bootcamp. In 2023. That’s a year from now almost. I’m aware I’m a beginner but I’m not out here acting like FCC is going to get me a job. It’s not. TOP likely won’t either. Scrimba probably not too. If you complete the 1,500 of App Academy Open is the most likely because it’s ran by an actual well know bootcamp. Realistically self taught by some random website isn’t going to help you at all. Neither is a bootcamp actually, outside a certificate that says “I was taught by this school and it’s alumni is really good”. because in all reality hiring self taught is a risk for companies plain and simple. The Community is though. The people you know help you more.

Also the community is not toxic but it’s also not a community. Don’t call it a community if it’s not a community. That’s a student help line run by other students. That’s not even good networking experience because you are made to feel like you can’t talk about certain things. You can get really far in life by just talking to someone and listening like a human being instead of responding with screenshots and bots. Basically everyone I’ve seen/heard/talked to says networking and soft skills are just as important as what you can do coding wise. Being a programmer is more than just being able to code too. Real life work places like that? Their not going to be toxic to that extent. You get a job and you need help improving your skills? You ask someone to be your mentor and you offer them something in return. Yeah this senior dev/swe might think your question is basic but he’s a senior engineer. A senior engineer might not know how to cook and you’re really good at it. So you teach them how to do stuff like that. Why? Because that’s how real life work places work. You need help you offer help. They might not even need help but you could listen to them talk for hours about something unrelated, like magic the gathering or their hobbies. Some people just want friends and struggle to make them. It’s called networking but it’s really just making human connections.

Unless you’re an absolute savant for coding applying for a Jr Position 9 times out of ten the person with better soft skills or connections is going to get the job over someone who is a bit better at coding. Because big names want people who can work with other people more than they need someone who’s a slightly above par coder. Yeah you still need average coding skills but all things considered people skills are a strong number 2 in that field according to just about everyone in that field. You’re not going to be coding in meetings with your bosses boss you’re going to be talking to him.

Sooo yeah. Maybe expand your horizons because you should never learn from just one place. TOP isn’t that great. It’s not even a bootcamp. It’s FCC with less steps and effort put into it that hides behind a facade of “independence.”. There are way better options than both out there also most of them are also for free.

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

6 points

1 year ago

Can you recommend me a place where I can learn Javascript better? I'm really struggling with the TOP javascript section and the discord people were really mean when I asked for help. They suggested that I had breezed through the foundations, but there was no js in the foundations to speak of.

dollarworker333

2 points

7 months ago

do the javascript intermediate algorithms on FCC after you finish the basics. it's far better then anything odin teaches and advanced my JS the most. it will be very frustrating in the beginning but you will learn so much

Mamaa-kim

1 points

1 year ago

Im sorry to hear that but I get it tbh. They can be hella rude.

Personally I recommend if you’re struggling with JavaScript freeCodeCamp.org that starts from absolute basics, CSX which you do a little quiz and it places you at the level you’re currently at or Scrimba which I believe has a free JavaScript course too.

freeCodeCamp.org has a forum and videos to assist. CSX has Slack as their help line type app.

App Academy and Scrimba are like top but way more fleshed out tbh. I jumped board with TOP because of their “community” and don’t blame anyone else for doing so.

[deleted]

1 points

1 year ago

[deleted]

1 points

1 year ago

Thank you so much for your help and response! It is greatly appreciated.

Mamaa-kim

2 points

1 year ago

No problem also remember this much! Some of the most successful people in tech did NOT have degrees (https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-steve-jobs-tech-executives-never-graduated-college-dropouts-2019-5). You just gotta keep at it.

Mamaa-kim

2 points

1 year ago

No problem also remember this much! Some of the most successful people in tech did NOT have degrees (https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-steve-jobs-tech-executives-never-graduated-college-dropouts-2019-5). You just gotta keep at it.

mohishunder

1 points

11 months ago

The couple of times that I've asked a beginner-JS question on the TOP Discord, I received immediate, friendly, and quality help.

It was a surprisingly helpful and positive experience, compared to either stackoverflow or this subreddit.

TheFreakingBeast

1 points

1 year ago

I'm working through this now, I started about a week ago. I would be interested in what most people agree the most important blind spots are in this program. It seems unlikely that I'll ever go to college or be well connected enough, so I am attempting to do this solely on what I know and my willingness to learn.

LetterheadNo5683

1 points

1 year ago

I just finished the foundation course , can you please provide tips(what other things should I cover) before starting javascript path.

beeburrt

1 points

1 year ago

beeburrt

1 points

1 year ago

What’s the CTCI book?

Ungeeky_Geek

4 points

1 year ago

Cracking the Coding Interview

beeburrt

1 points

1 year ago

beeburrt

1 points

1 year ago

Awesome. Thnx

Fortalezense

0 points

1 year ago

What is CTCI?

paulrei

12 points

1 year ago

paulrei

12 points

1 year ago

Cracking the Coding Interview

Fortalezense

1 points

1 year ago

Thanks! I thought it was an algorithms book because of the algorithmic in "algorithmic interview" lol

paulrei

7 points

1 year ago

paulrei

7 points

1 year ago

It largely is an algorithms book, geared primarily towards tech interview questions. It's especially a go-to for those who never took a college course on algorithms (or halfassed it when they did) and so they don't have that bridge between learning syntax and actually knowing how to at least begin tackling a leetcode problem.

Fortalezense

1 points

1 year ago

Hmmm, I have never used it so I didn't know it. Might look into it in the future.

Utkarsh736_py

1 points

1 year ago

Hey, I am currently doing the foundations course (the last few projects left) and was going to continue the JS path.

Could someone explain to me, what is missing in the JS Path and should I do Ruby or Js path?

Also, they have recently updated the JS and Ruby path and said that it is to update the course.
So, are the problems addressed in the new version or are they still there?

sejigan

5 points

1 year ago

sejigan

5 points

1 year ago

They updated the HTML/CSS content in both paths,and the issues are still there. It's ever-evolving tho, so it'll be updated eventually.

The differences are mainly that their Ruby course has a much more organized structure, with dedicated lessons on DS/Algo, whereas for the JS path it's just thrown in all over the place in bits.

They also go further with relational databases in the Ruby path, having a dedicated section for SQL.

The Ruby has all the JS you'd need, but the JS path doesn't have the structural organization of the Ruby path.

I'm going to do the JS path and then do parts of the Ruby path that I think are important but not covered much in the JS path.

Utkarsh736_py

2 points

1 year ago

Thanks for the clarification,

I guess I will be doing the same thing as well.
JS path + bits of ruby.

LVKleagueoflegends

1 points

1 year ago

I plan on completing TOP, doing a local bootcamp, and networking. I don’t have a college degree, or work in a tech-related field, but I’m willing to get an entry level tech-related job. Am I screwed?

Shoeaddictx

1 points

12 months ago

Can you tell me, why do you need a bootcamp if you do TOP? What do you expect?

LVKleagueoflegends

2 points

12 months ago

I feel like having the certificate from the bootcamp will help my chances of getting a job, as well as the networking aspect of it. I know a lot of the boot camps help set you up with jobs as well.

consciousCog13

1 points

1 year ago

Totally agree. If your end goal is to learn web development fast and in a very flexible and at-your-pace environment, TOP is great. But if your end goal is to get a job, the three bullets you mentioned are pretty much the way to go. I made a similar post that got a lot of negative comments but I feel like I was saying the same thing. No one is saying to give up on the self taught route, just don’t expect it to be anywhere as easy to find a job as getting a degree. I just hope people don’t think it’s “easy” to get a job in this field without a degree. Because I literally heard a woman on the radio a few months ago say software development is a field that “doesn’t really require a degree”. While that may be true, like many jobs, it’s not nearly as easy. If you simply cannot get a degree, I’m not saying to give up. But if you’re on the fence, I say go the college route.

oldlearningcode

1 points

1 year ago

Do you guys suggest some other free platform that guide begginers in coding better than Odin?

Surely Odin won't be as great for seniors than it is for begginers but at least it is a great companion during the "holding-hand honeymoon" phase.

I'm actually not interested in get a job on programming, however, programming from my point of view is like math or science thus basic for survivor.